- Really fair. Something which is not fair to one part, cannot be fair to another. So, fair for everybody. But we in Serbia and Yugoslavia are trying to reach an agreement which the citizens of Serbia and Yugoslavia would like. That of course includes all citizens, Albanians. It would be nice if the agreement were to be liked by others, Americans for example, but we do not arrange our country in line with the interests of others, but according to our interests.

      Q: Frankly, do you think you can really satisfy Albanians?

      - Of course, we cannot satisfy those who seek independence. This is the line we cannot cross.

      Q: When you met Rugova, did you agree with him?

      - I think that we understood each other well. We said, and that was even in our press release that the solution has to be based on full respect of equality of citizens and national communities in Kosmet. It cannot be avoided. Full respect of citizens and national communities is key for Kosovo. There is no other key for Kosmet, any imposed solution cannot work. Solutions are like machines. They may be beautiful before they start working. They when you try to make it work, it is still beautiful but it does not work.

      Q: Have you seen the text of Dick Lugar in the Washington Post, in which he said that Washington is making a mistake for co-operating with you at all, and that democratic opposition should be built in Serbia and oust the regime in Serbia?

      - Democracy excludes interference into internal affairs. Your president Wilson had great ideas after the First World War, but that kind of democracy cannot be imposed by tanks and bombing. I believe that senator Lugar is not well informed of the situation here and I do not know what we can talk about. You can talk with someone when he has facts, without that you cannot talk. I think that it is not in the spirit of American democracy to reserve the right to bring other countries to order. This is something that nobody can swallow.

      Q: You must have been very angry when you read the text.

      - No, I was not angry at all. I read worse things than that. In the past ten years I saw a lot of things and experienced many things. I am not sensitive to such messages. Only the people that is well and sound can be angry if they are preparing a government for it abroad.

      Q: But I heard from your opposition that you are a very foxy strategist and that the opposition is very weak.

      - No, it is not weak. When national interests are at stake, there is no difference between the authorities and the opposition. You have democrats and republicans who fight each other. But when national interests of America are at stake, then there is no conflict. Then all of them stand together. It is the same in our country. We have opposition in Parliament, major opposition party is that of Mr. Draskovic, SPO. But when it comes to Kosovo they are on the same track.

      Q: They are not asking for more freedom in Serbia? More papers, freedom of the university, freedom of expression?

      - Serbia is one of the most democratic states in Europe. Since multi-party system was introduced, there were three federal and four republican elections. In the republican and federal parliament there are representatives of several parties, left and right. Freedom of the media is such that a Law had to be adopted to introduce a category of responsibility for what is publicly said in order to protect the citizens from fundamental untruths. There is 2500 media in Serbia, most of which are privately owned.

      Q: But they are controlled by the State?

      - Only the state television. In Great Britain the BBC is controlled by the state.

      Q: But in our country, private persons own TV stations.

      - The state has control only over the state TV, but it has no control whatsoever over any private TV network.

      Q: How many private TV stations are there?

      - I don't know their exact number, but there are many of them. For instance, one of the biggest stations in Belgrade - Studio B is controlled by the Opposition, that is by Mr Draskovic. The ruling party and the Government exercise no influence over that station. There is also BK Television, Pink Television, TV Palma. They are all privately run and have a large audience, as well as many other TV stations throughout Serbia.

      Q: Is it true, I have heard that one of your official said that Osama bin Laden is influential in Kosovo and that it seems that he is there himself?
             - We possess information that Osama bin Laden visited Albania and not Kosovo.

      Q: Why did he go to Albania?

      - Why? We have heard that he blew up your embassies.

      Q: Are his training camps situated in Albania, rather than in Afghanistan?

      - I don't know where he is and I don't know where his camps are located. I believe that the United States knows better his present whereabouts than I do. We understand that he visited Albania and that this visit lasted several weeks.

      Q: Do think that Albania is going to become a fundamentalist and terrorist state?

      - Not a fundamentalist one, but surely they are in a state of disarray. I deeply deplore the situation in Albania. We would like to see it in a state of order rather than in a state of disorder and disarray.

      Q: Can you visualise Bosnia as a fundamentalist state?

      - Not really.

      Q: Does that mean that you do not perceive any danger coming from fundamentalism in the region?

- Some Mujahidin have come to Kosovo and many of them, of course, had come to Bosnia.

      Q: Did they help the Bosnians?

      - Yes, they did. Your agencies know this very well. They know that they ran training camps in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but when I speak of people in Bosnia, the Bosnian Muslims, I believe that they are not fundamentalist-oriented.

Q: Does it mean that Mujahidin helped in Bosnia?

      - Not only them but also the Saudis and other Muslim countries, which assisted them because they thought they were in danger as they were Muslims. That was not true. We have Muslims here in Yugoslavia and they have not for one moment felt threatened in any way. Quite the contrary. More than 150.000 Muslims of Kosovo are equal in their rights with the Serbs and they are on a collision course with the Albanian separatist movement there. This is something that the international public does not know or understand.

      Q: Don't you think that the KLA is growing stronger every day?

      - They grew stronger this summer, however they were defeated.

Q: Will the fighting be re-ignited or will the cease-fire hold?

      - For all those living in Kosovo and Metohija, a peaceful political settlement should be a priority. As for terrorists or murderers and kidnappers, we hope that they will not be able to recover. Even if they do, and if they resume fighting, they will be routed. This is something which is not in doubt.

      Q: So, you are not concerned that there might be another spring bout of fighting?

      - No, I am not because they are no longer a military factor, nor will we ever again allow them to become one. They, however, still pose a security threat, because they may ambush and kill people. And this is what they do. They may abduct people. They killed an Albanian doctor in front of his home simply because he worked for a state medical facility in Pec. They then wounded a mother driving her three children in a car, even though they saw that she was alone with children. There is an endless list of their misdeeds.

      - I don't know the details of that case.

      Q: This is a very important detail. If you and I were to stand outside our homes holding weapons, that would not constitute a crime. Why are then Albanian put on trial? The article says that he only guarded his home.
             - Even your country does not allow civilians to hold guns. To be able to do that in this country too, one has to have a police licence. Because of the situations brought about the wars in Bosnia and Croatia, our police are not allowed to issue civilians with licences for holding long-barrelled guns. You may get a licence for a handgun, but not for an automatic weapon and to do with it whatever you like.

      Q: This sounds to me pretty innocent. I don't see why it is a crime.

      - It is not a crime, but it is not innocuous either, given the present conditions, especially in Kosovo.

      Q: Don't you think that the biggest problem in the United States is that you are accused of some of the worst atrocities in this century?

      - I believe that the biggest problem we have with the United States is a very bad propaganda and the media war that is being waged against us.

      Q: What is the situation with facts?

      - All facts are on our side. The problem is that the truth is not very popular.

      Q: And what about the ethnic cleansing?

      - If you are referring to Bosnia, all the warring parties there bear great responsibility. We have on numerous occasions condemned the practice of ethnic cleansing and we strongly opposed it, regardless of whether it was done by the Serbs, Muslims or Croats.

      Q: People say that the top officials in your country were those who gave orders to commit ethnic cleansing?

      - That is not true.

      Q: This is why they want to arrest Mladic and Karadzic, isn't it?

      - This is their justification, but Karadzic and Mladic did nothing that Izetbegovic and his Chief of Army Staff were not doing.

      Q: But they did not slit throats to thousands of people?

      - There is no evidence to support it.

      Q: But I saw it on television?

      - I also saw many things on television, including violence against the Serbs who were said to be Muslims, even when they wore distinctive boat-shaped caps, the so-called "sajkaca".

      Q: Do you regret anything?

      - All I did was to search for peace. In that search many errors were made and no one is immune to it. I regret nothing in particular and my conscience is clear.

      Q: The stories which came from Bosnia were horrible, stories of thousands of people shot, and they all say that you had the power to stop it.

      - True, I used my power to stop it.

Q: Haven't you controlled Karadzic and Mladic? When did you stop to control them?

- I have never controlled Karadzic and Mladic. I first met Karadzic when was president of his party and when he ran a third of Bosnia and Herzegovina. At that time, they believed that an agreement would be reached with the Muslims and Croats. I must say to you that they were well on the way of achieving it. A special conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina was arranged in Lisbon, chaired by Portuguese Ambassador Cutiliero. That was before the war escalated. I remember very well the meeting of the International Conference on the former Yugoslavia in the Hague. The chair of the meeting was Lord Peter Carrington. At the outset of the conference, Ambassador Cutiliero briefed us all that tangible progress was made in the settlement of the problem between the Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims. I remember what happened after Cutiliero had informed us about that positive development. Izetbegovic took the floor to ask that they be recognised as a state. I then warned that Ambassador Cutiliero had said that there had been positive development. Why spoil this by an early recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina which would create chaos. I had in mind that Bosnia-Herzegovina was made up of three nations living there. The rump referendum was the basis for that request, which should not have been initiated in the first place and thus spoiled the positive progress. I asked that they be given more time to make further progress and not to go ahead with a premature recognition that would only resulted in negative consequences. There are records and sound recordings to prove all this. A few weeks later, Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised an independent state, in which the Bosnian Serbs did not want to be second-rate citizens. They told me: we want to remain within our previous state. And that is all.

      Q: Do you see any difference between the Clinton and Bush administrations?

      - I am not an expert on US internal affairs. As far as its foreign policy is concerned, I believe that the Bush Administration was more responsible. My impression is that the Bush Administration knew well that the problems in Kosovo arose from a separatist movement and not from the lack of human rights and democracy.

      Q: Mr Eagleburger lived here fir many years?

      - Yes, he did and I knew him very well. After a while, he was not well informed about the situation in Yugoslavia. The United States was not involved at the outbreak of the Yugoslav crisis. The Bush Administration maintained that Yugoslavia needed to be preserved. After that, faced with the failure of the Europeans to assist, they decided to join them.

      Q: Because Germans essentially wanted Croatia to be independent?

      - Yes, they wanted them to be independent and they effectively contributed to it.

      Q: That was at the beginning of the break-up of Yugoslavia?

      - That's right. They began with Slovenia. There are many articles in the papers on the preparations for it. You may take a look at those reports in the Western press. This is a rather long story and is not for this conversation.

      Q: Do you believe that the Serbs living in Kosovo would be willing to live under the local law. You say no. They have to live in accordance with the Serbian law and to go to trial before Serbian courts, is this the right interpretation?

      - All at the local level must be applied equally to all. The thing is that they must all participate on an equal basis. They will have their own laws while the legal system of Serbia will be applied in Kosovo. What is good to all Serbs, all Hungarians, all Slovaks, all Ruthenians, all Muslims and all others living in Serbia, why would it not be good for Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija as well. All that is applied in Serbia must be valid and applied to all its citizens.

      Q: Do you think that takes into account the interests and aspirations of Kosovo Albanians?

      - The state fully takes into account their interests, excepts for the goals of the separatist movement to bring about secession.

      Q: Do you think that the conditions of life there will improve in the foreseeable future?

      - Conditions of life will improve through economic development. I believe that if we achieve something similar to the proposed Common Agreement, there will be no need to wage a war.

      Q: Are you referring to the Serbian plan put forward at the end of last month?

- That is not a Serbian plan but the plan proposed by the Muslims, Romanies, Turks and all national communities of Kosovo and Metohija, including by representatives of two Albanian parties.

      Q: According to my information, that plan is not satisfactory for major Albanian parties.

      - That plan is not unacceptable for all Kosovo Albanians but only for some of their politicians who are leading the separatist movement, whose aim is to achieve independence for Kosovo and Metohija.

The President gave to his interlocutor a copy of the Joint agreement saying, recorded on tape: "Please read the text and if you find anything that is not in line with the highest standards of democracy, human and minority rights, you can write that it is no good".

• Only civilians were innocent who suffered the consequences of the horrors of war
• We have market economy
• Laws equal for all
• We do not arrange our country in line with the interests of others